Homelessness Minister Alison McGovern - Politics Series | Hope in the Deep End Podcast

Welcome to our podcast 'Hope in the Deep End', brought to you by the Shared Health Foundation.

In this podcast series we are exploring all the different complexities of working in areas of deprivation, poverty and entrenched health inequalities. From clinicians to youth workers, we want to inspire, challenge and give inspiration to all those that work in the deep end.

This episode was recorded as part of our Politics Series, where we speak to colleagues from all sides of the House, campaigners and activists about what keeps them hopeful in their work. 

Alison McGovern is the Labour Member of Parliament for Birkenhead and currently serves as Minister of State for Local Government and Homelessness. She has represented her hometown in Parliament since 2010, first for Wirral South and then for Birkenhead following boundary changes in 2024.

Alison has long been committed to improving temporary accommodation for families and children. In this episode, she reflects on her political beginnings, her upbringing in a family of advocates, and the progress she’s made—alongside her vision for a more secure and compassionate future.

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Transcript

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I think people do feel that sense of shock. And ironically, that is what sort of makes me hopeful that once people can see and they do see and they understand the vast majority of people being honest from a range of political background say, well, we've got to fix this. Hi, I'm Laura Neilson, and welcome to Hope in the Deep End. We've put together this podcast to inspire us all to keep working in areas of deprivation and poverty. We’re sharing best practice stories, outcomes and some interesting thoughts and ideas. So whether you're working in primary care, secondary care, the charity sector or any of the other myriad of roles, please listen and help us to keep each other inspired. So welcome to Hope in the Deep End podcast. We are here in government today to talk to Government Minister Alison McGovern about her role in politics and her role of making a difference for children who are living in temporary accommodation. So welcome, Ali. Thanks. Nice to be with you. Nice office. Yeah. Yeah. Not not my one, but. Yeah, it is nice. It's good, isn't it? Yeah. So we are a group of people who think about how do we maintain hope working in areas of deprivation, working in complex systems. So I was really intrigued. How did you come into politics? Because you're not from a typical political background? No. I mean, none of my predecessors in my family or whatever have been a member of Parliament, which is it's actually not that rare for members of Parliament. Most people are not nepo babies, but it's just that we've heard of the ones who are. Yeah, true. So I yeah, I didn't come from a particularly political background, although both my parents were political in different ways. My dad was very active in the trade union movement, and he was he was a he was a workplace rep. And then he was on lots of committees. But my mum was a bit more practical. She. She did things like set up the food co-op in the 80s when, you know, things were tough. Her and her friends kind of banded together to buy things wholesale, and there wasn't a preschool for my brother to go to. So my mom and her friends set one up. Oh, wow. Yeah. And that preschool is is still going, and it's now part of the education system or whatever. So they both made a difference, but in different ways. Yeah. So did you think you would end up in politics, you know, when you were kind of a teenager, 18. No, no, not at all. I thought, I studied politics at school and I was very interested in it. And me and my friend Jenny were, like, very nerdy about politics. We used to sit at the back of the class and, like, be like, know all the answers and all of that. We were like, the most annoying people, probably in the world. Yeah. She now works for the NHS. And I thought maybe I could work for an MP, or maybe work in politics in some way. But the idea of being a member of Parliament was not something that I ever thought was achievable. When did that shift? It shifted, probably when I decided to stand for a local council. Yeah. So after university, I worked a bit in in parliament, as you know, I was interested. And then I decided to stand to be a local councillor. And basically I went along to a local Labor Party meeting. Not that this is a political discussion, but I went along to a local Labor Party meeting. And whereas a lot of what you see about politics is, you know, big, powerful men shouting at each other. In this local Labor Party meeting, my now friend Kirsty was talking about doing a petition to get more social housing in the part of London that we lived in at the time, and I thought, oh, that's what, that's what. I can do that, yeah. This was for. So, so we went out and we did this petition, and then I just got the bug of campaigning locally, and then I got to kind of do an election, which was really fun. And we got absolutely smashed in the face. We got totally torn apart by the Liberal Democrats at the time. This is like 2003. So they were riding high, but amazingly enough, that didn't put me off. And I thought, oh, quite like elections. So then I was like thinking about what to do. And I was doing a campaign to get more women to be councillors. And my friend Fiona said, you are a woman, like, why don't you do it? And I thought, I couldn't think of a reason not to. So then everything changed me, really. I stood to be a councillor in the fabulous London borough and I really enjoyed it. And that was actually the first time I came across the issue of temporary accommodation, which is a whole another story. It is, isn't it? Yeah. And now you find yourself as minister, and we were in a meeting together a couple of weeks ago, and you said something like, I still find it a real privilege and exciting that I'm the minister. I was such a, like such a cool comment. I thought, yeah, if I'd ended up as a minister, not that I'm going to be. But I was like, yeah, I think I'd be like, oh, that's cool. And do you still feel like that. Every day. I had 14 years in the House of Commons once I was elected as a member of Parliament on the backbenches and on the, on the front bench in opposition. And I remember just like looking at the Treasury bench, which is what we call the bench in the House of Commons that the ministers sit on. And I remember looking at the Treasury bench and thinking. I want to be there. If I ever get the chance to sit on that bench and take decisions, I will just try and not waste a minute because it will be such a privilege. And not everything has gone right. Of course it has not. But I'm really proud of some of the things that we as a team of ministers have been able to do already, and I hope that over the next year will do some more really cool things. Yeah. And I mean, recently your team has published the Child Poverty Strategy and the Homelessness Strategy, which felt like quite key milestone pieces of work. And when you published those into all the negotiation behind the scenes, how much are you trying to drive through change. How much how much do you want to see happen? Well, all the time, really. I mean, that's the only reason to do it. I mean, politics is really hard. The only reason to do it is because you realise that you can do a policy fix that turns up in someone's life. So in April, like at the turn of the month, in April, when I knew the families who, you know, if you're a single mum with three kids on Universal Credit, you've been best part of 300 pounds a month down and knowing that that 300 pounds a month is coming to all of those families. I mean, that is like that's. The two child benefit cap. Yes. Sorry. Because the two child benefit cap has been got rid of. So in April, you know, all of these families. It’s tangible. Yeah. Like there's like a million families of three out there, you know, like they needed that money. They shouldn't have been robbed of it. They needed it. And now they've got it back. And it's 300 pounds a month this month. 300 pounds a month next month. If you're a family of three and it's 300 pounds a month after that every single month. And that is like really worth it to me because I know what those families have been through. That is material change. And for your own constituency, that will make a massive difference. 1 million pounds a month for Birkenhead? No way. Yeah. So yeah, 3500 children were going without. And so the effect of that for Birkenhead and for every constituency, I should say that that's got a significant number of children in that position will be that that money will be there for local shops, you know, it will help refloat local places. One thing we know about families with children who haven't got a lot of money is that when they have got money, they spend it because they need to, right? They're spending it on the essentials. And so that money will really help my constituency. And a lot of families talk about, if they had a bit of extra income. They want to buy better food, they want to go to football club. They want their kids to do some activities. You know, they really invest in in good things. Yeah, of course, of course. Even just going to the cinema. Right. Yeah. Remember the first time you went to the cinema with your parents? Like, imagine the number of children who have not been able to do that. Actually, I don't remember going to the cinema that much when I was growing up, but it wasn't 1980s, so like, like, probably that was why. But I think about, as I say, as we get towards the summer. The beach and things like that. My big, big, big hope is that through the child poverty strategy that some there'll be families out there who get the chance to have a little holiday this year. Yeah, they really need that. People need that time with their family. So that's what it's all about. And I think policy can make such a difference. So I had my children quite young and we benefited massively from the tax credit system under the previous Labour government. And I was thinking about it now. You know, I would not have been able to continue and become a doctor and without some of that real policy support. Yeah. You know, so my kids are thriving because of government policies at that time to see them there are now for this generation of parents. It's a real privilege, isn't it? Yeah. So in 2010, when I first stood for election, it was just after the 2008 crash. And I remember this dad on the doorstep saying to me that he ran a small business and it had basically gone under because of the crash, but they'd made it through because of tax credits. That story didn't really get told in that election, and as a result, we were forced headlong into this, you know, austerity that without getting, you know, rehearsing all of the politics, which meant that families paid the price. And on I think it was week one in government. Liz Kendall and I walked into the DWP and said, right, child poverty strategy, here we go. And it did feel like finally those families were going to get a hearing. So if we talk a little about temporary accommodation. So I've been really impressed. How you have genuinely grappled with temporary accommodation. it's a complex issue, but it is unacceptable. I think that the level of children living term compensation is as high as it is. Yeah. And you've started to try and move the dial on the numbers, but also the type of temporary accommodation. So you've made some really strong commitments. Yeah I mean I think it comes back to, So when I was a local councillor in Southwark, I was doing my surgery one day and this lady came to see me and she said she was in temporary accommodation. And I just fought a really hard campaign in this ward. And I literally felt like I knew every door, I knew every door. And I said to her, there is no temporary accommodation in my ward. And she said, there is. I'm living in it. And I said, no, there isn't. And she said, there is. And I said, take me there because I don't think there is. Anyway. She she takes me. We left my surgery, which is in a little church building in Camberwell, and we walked down the road to this small housing estate and what I thought was a store cupboard had ten families in it. And I never forgot that feeling of correct humiliation of me not even having known. And so I, I just know how hidden this problem is. The situation we've got at the moment, I think, is particularly bad for those people who end up in B&B type accommodation. I worry about space. I worry about being able to have a bathroom and cook food in a way that should be normal for a family, but if you're in, if you're in a very small room where really you're all in the one room all the time, and kitchen might be floors above, bathroom might be shared. I worry about the possibility of childhood in those circumstances. I think councils, many councils are struggling. This is like an uphill struggle for them. They haven't had a lot of support. So what I'm trying to do is put in place a strategy to get people out of the worst kind of temporary accommodation that is the most urgent thing, and then create the possibility for councils to own and manage better temporary accommodation, because you and I could go to some temporary accommodation now. And it's fine and it wouldn't feel different to normal social housing, right. It's not glamorous, but childhood is possible. Yeah. So let's try and focus on giving local authorities a bit of breathing space. So they've got more to play with. And we've we've announced a kind of big fund to help them do that. So it's we've got to really bear down on the use of the worst kind of temporary accommodation, give local authorities more ability to have better temporary accommodation. And meanwhile the big plan is more social housing because that is, in the end, what helps to stabilise family finances and give people a foundation to build on. Realistically, temporary commendation is here for a bit longer. Obviously, my personal ambition is that it's down to the absolute minimum and the shortest possible time, which is narrative that you've said. Yeah. And then the other bit is how do we mitigate and how do we make childhood possible in temporary accommodation. So, you know, Cots is an absolute yeah. Kids must have cots to sleep in. I'm really worried about that. You know, kitchens, education. One of the things that we've become more, I've become more interested in is the number of times we're moving children. And the kind of it is a risk factor, the number of moves as well as the type of accommodation. So obviously a lot of councils are dispersing children out of their borough and sometimes that can be a positive move. A lot of the time that's not a choice move. But we don't know how many times these children are moving. But the anecdotal evidence that's been gathered suggests it's a very high number. And that disruption is also poor for childhood, isn't it? Yeah, that's that's really it. I mean, so one of the things in the strategy is to try to get on top of moves, both number and also notification and things like GP care, which I think, I think there's some connection between all of the moves and the lack of health care systems falling out the system. Yeah. So we need to repair that. Really fewer moves and people being solidly in the health care system. And the notification is part of this becoming unhidden. Yes, exactly. So at the moment we know schools don't get told and GPs don't get told. And so it just makes this hyper vulnerable group even more hidden within our public sector services. So it's a move to to make it more visible. That's that's right, that's right. People can see rough sleeping on the street. And the vast majority of members of the public really worry about that. It it's of course a big issue. But I sort of sometimes think, yeah, but do you know what you can't see? Yeah. Like, if I could take you to the worst kind of B&B accommodation, you'd really worry about that as well. So one of the jobs that we will have to do is to help people collectively understand what they can't see. And yes, that's about making people who are in temporary accommodation or who otherwise got a housing vulnerability properly in the system. But it's also about saying, okay, right. So if you're if you're somebody who's at risk of homelessness because of abuse, for example, domestic abuse or harassment or some other kind of risk to you, it could be a positive thing to move. But for most people, I would say who are not in that situation, it's unlikely. Sometimes local authorities have just got no choice and we'd all accept that as a reality. So we need to reduce the number of moves where it's not helpful to that person. And if there does have to be a move, get people properly in the system. So that's the kind of overall strategy. That's great. And also whether you can move to somewhere where you do have a connection, you know, rather than just kind of randomly in the country. And that's one thing families have said to us that if they knew they had to move out the area they'd rather move near an auntie or some kind of connection to, to something rather than just completely allocated. But and that takes local authorities working together. And you know, that's a big issue as well. People have got to remember, local authorities have had their backs against the wall for a decade. Local authorities took the biggest cuts of any government department, and that has really diminished what they're able to do. So I know councils don't get everything right, but I'm also very sympathetic. I'm also the Minister for Local Government. Difficult job. I'm also, like very sympathetic to the idea that if you've shared so many staff that actually you are going to be nervous about what you can do, and it creates that kind of reticence. Yeah. And tension between local authorities essentially. So we've got to try and work on that. I think I would ask everybody to be realistic about what it does to people, to just not have enough money to provide basic services. So the National Child Mortality Database release has come out, and it shows again that we've got children dying unexpectedly in temporary accommodation, mainly children under one. And it was mirrored by the MBRRACE data, which is the first time we've had a data flag that I think something that most people would intrinsically know is true, that homelessness is not good for pregnancy. So, so, but we. It’s one of those things that when the data shows it, you wonder why you needed the data to show it, but it's nonetheless the right thing. It's the right thing, and the data is really helpful. And what it does show is that we've got quite a number of babies who are being born, who are dying within the first 28 days of life. So neonatal death and also late stillbirths of mums living in temporary accommodation. I think that's really interesting from a policy angle because what does that mean for maternity care? What does that mean for recognising risk? And I know as minister you've always been passionate about women and women's issues. So yeah. Yeah. Well I think it's hard when you look at the inequalities in society, whether that's poverty to not care about, to not care about women. Because I always remember going into a women's refuge, I'm not going to say where it is, but I went into a women's refuge as a local MP many years ago when I was pregnant, and having that conversation with the staff there about just the you're just more vulnerable in myriad ways that people don't quite understand, you know, particularly when it comes to abuse and that sort of thing, but also all of the health risks that you have and therefore we have we have to think differently about how we support women in the system. I also, you know, I know what the data says about the first days of a child's life and how just how important they are. And, you know, we spent a lot of time in the child poverty strategy thinking about how to rebuild that local support so that women and their children could feel, you know, an arm around their shoulder as well if things were tough. And that that little bit of parenting support early on goes a very long way. So I think focusing on those moments of vulnerability is the right thing. And there was lots in the data that surprised me, and I look at the data a lot, but the sudden and unexpected child death rate in women living in temporary accommodation is about three times that Of that we see in the non temporary accommodation population. And that suggests that we can do stuff to drive down this child mortality rate. So as a clinician I think that's really interesting. If there was a drug to fix this NICE would approve it. Yeah. And but there isn't. But there is a lot of work we can do. There is policy. There is lots of work we can do to prevent this. And inappropriate, poor quality temporary accommodation feels to me like a good bet. Yeah. You know, always, as you would know, always more research to be done. But inappropriate temporary accommodation feels to me like that, getting rid of that would help, I think, trying to prevent homelessness, There’s three goals in the homelessness strategy. Getting kids out of B&B, particularly unlawfully trying to help people who've been sleeping rough long term. And then the other one is the prevention goal, which is is, as I say, just feels like a really good bet that if we could try to stop people having to leave their homes in the first place, that would help. From a policy point of view, with those statistics, we can definitely do a lot on that, particularly from the point of view of domestic abuse. It shouldn't be, should it? The woman who's experienced abuse or violence, who. Has to be person that leaves. Who has to be made homeless? It shouldn't be, should it? And there's lots of work going on with, you know, some of the expert groups that help the government to try and figure out how to make that much more likely, which I'm really excited about. Yeah. And, you know, trying to make sure that people don't have to leave tenancies again. It's got to be the right thing. And it's so brilliant that the Renters Rights Act is now coming into force. You know, no more section 21. That's good. It's it's not. It's not perfect. It's not a magic. Wand. But it sets people up in a better position than they would otherwise be. So as as a minister, Your world must be particularly busy. But also, one of the things that we talk about a lot on this podcast is how do you maintain resilience and hope when some things are in your control? So you can organise a inter-ministerial meeting and you can galvanise your colleagues, and you've talked quite a lot about allyship, actually, in building consensus, but also then you're completely buffeted by things that are massively out of your control and you can't really influence anything. So how do you personally just get up each morning, stay positive and keep keep having a go? Well, I mean, the first thing that I would say is like I'm not always like. Happy, happy, happy. I sometimes get up in the morning and think, you know, for goodness sake and other swear words, you know? Yeah, yeah. I think I sometimes get up in the morning and think like, really? But. I think there's a lot of nonsense in politics. That's my observation. After it'll be 20 years since I stood for election for the first time in May. Congratulations. Thank you. So after 20 years, my observation is if you just watch politics on the telly. It's very noisy. It's very noisy, and there's a lot of nonsense, and you don't actually have to pay attention to all of that to be to really care about what should change politically. But I think the thing that makes me keep going is just like focus. I mean, literally the things that you can do if you have got an idea and you want to push forward on that and you keep going, like, is is amazing. Now, I went back to my old ward in Camberwell last week to just do a bit of campaigning, local elections at the moment, and I walked past the Camberwell Leisure Center, the Victorian public baths that was going to close, that I worked with Harriet Harman and a whole bunch of councillors there to make sure it didn't close, and it got 1.5 million pounds to be renovated. And that's a swimming pool for young people. And like, it's not the biggest win in the world. It might not be changing the world for everybody, but it was worth doing. And the idea of all of those kids in Camberwell going for a nice swim. Yeah. You know, well, that was worth it. So I feel like if you're somebody who's thinking about the things that you care about and feel very frustrated and angry with the world, that's totally fine. Probably appropriate. Directive. But don't I would say don't allow that to consume your attention. It does not have to like give your attention to where you can make change. And that is that will be much more likely to get stuff done. Yeah. And that's a really helpful message. You know, your mum set up the preschool, your dad did his advocacy work, and. My dad liked to go along to meetings and, you know, have a row, I think I mean, it's funny because, like, my dad was like, always the one who'd be at, like the railwaymen’s union conference, making big speeches and all of that. And like, that is a part of politics too. But your mum got stuff done. But my mum got stuff done. Yeah. Interesting in it. Yeah. And I think, you know, when you look back on your career, I think you, you can see the moments that you're proud of. Is that on the ground change and that real that real tangible, you know, people's lives different. Don't get me wrong. I am Michael McGovern's daughter. I like to go into the House of Commons and make a speech as well. But yeah, it's what I would say is like a way to deal with the frustration, I think is just to be like, if we do nothing else, let's fix this thing. And then you know that fixing that thing leads on to other things and gives you, give you ideas and, you know, and that's in the end, how you kind of build those, as she was saying before those allies and build that team that can really make a change. My husband really likes watching. Welcome to Wrexham. I'm not really into football, but I love it as a TV show. But they've got this brilliant song. Don't forget to sing when you win is their title, and I have that on my back of my laptop, because amongst the day-to-day’s ups and downs. There are wins and there are things to celebrate. There’s great people to work alongside. That's right. I'm a massive Liverpool fan and we've not been doing so well. No, I know my husband's a Liverpool fan. Is he? I live it vicariously. Yeah, yeah. Well as you all know, we've not been doing so well this season. And but the one thing is like even in a bad season, a win always helps. And yeah. So yeah as I'd say in football, take your wins. Keep going, keep going. It's not over till the season's over. Absolutely. So you've got a really difficult brief, but I'm excited to see what is going to happen and what can happen. And thank you for your time today and thank you for your work. And I look forward to working more to find solutions for families in temporary accommodation and poverty issues more generally. And thank you. Thank you for your work. I think, you know, when when the numbers come out and people understand, like what can happen because of poor housing and, you know, complex range of factors. But just I think people do feel that sense of shock. And ironically, that is what sort of makes me hopeful that once people can see and they do see and they understand the vast majority of people being honest from a range of political background say, well, we've got to fix this. And that really does give me hope. So thank you. And it's been encouraging to me, I’m not somebody who's been around politics before. I am, you know, a classic geek who's done the NHS. But the more I've been working alongside politicians of lots of different parties actually there, most people are really nice and good and courteous and actually want to change the kind of noise of politics is one thing. And then underneath that, I don't think something that probably the public don't know is that underneath that there's a lot of collaboration across Parliament. There is to get stuff done.